[Ramadan] What do think of this way of deduction? (Inspired by white horse)?
This question taught me to be careful about my way of reasoning:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AnJoAJkq2mg7.Fsnrw_Npmvty6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20100403063050AAm3aJa
When "we intend Kaaba" (in Hajj ritual) in fact "we intend Allah". (Isn’t right sentence?)
So let me do some algebraic manipulations like white horse:
we intend Kaaba=we intend Allah
we intend Kaaba - (we intend)=we intend Allah - (we intend)
Kaaba=Allah
—–> We are all mushrik!
I didn’t intend to insult anyone! I just wanted to say:
please be careful in your reasoning! (It is a warning for myself too)
However, brother white horse uses worst words describing me, but I still consider him as Muslim!
May Allah Guide all of us to right path!
@ brother WH:
intend= ???(????)?
@ brother WH:
intend= ???(????)?
@ Rosy Pear:
alaykum assalaam
Sister, thank u for appreciating my Q!
You are right. What God forbids cannot be adopted as waseelah to get close to him. For e.g. we cannot cohabit with non-Muslim to tender Islam to them! That is wrong! WE can only use the approaches approved by God to get close to him.
According to what we have learned calling on ahlulbayt and interceding them is one of the approved and suggested approaches according to God, Koran, Sunnah and our Ahadith. When u deny the possibility of this being this approach by God we cannot go further. By ur denial God should be weak because he cannot choose the the way for his servants to get close to him! Again and again ur beautiful verses has no contradiction with what I believe in!
@ WH:
thank u: ???? (?????) is even better translation!
Why in this verse
?????? ???? ? ?????? ?????? ? ???? ????? ????
God has not said "Obey Allah and then Obey Rasul"
?????? ???? ??????? ?????? ? ???? ????? ????
nevertheless, I agree with u and the who idea intended in your hadith. Yes, even if we say the prophet name without "then" after Allah. We do believe that "Isalah ?????" is for God’s will and obeying him!
Yes we do believe that when we call on ahlulbayt we do believe that we intend God and "Isalah ?????" in our intention is for God not for his creatures!
May Allah bless Muhammad and Ali Muhammad!
@ WH
when Christians call on Jesus they consider him an independent power, The one who can accept their pleas excluding God’s power and his desire! and that is shirk! For God’s sake once and just once think about what I say! I am sure u will understand what is thee different between what we say and what Christians say!
* difference
@ WH:
Thank u so much bubt it was not new lesson for me! and let remind something:
waw al-atf can atf two words as well as sentence! So those who came to prophet(saww) could intend "wav al-aft" and not "ma’iyah". So why did prophet criticize them!
Nevertheless, I did not reject your hadith. u can read what I wrote for u again and find my point!
he might not understand your equation 
April 17th, 2010 at 8:06 pm
he might not understand your equation
References :
shia 4 life
April 17th, 2010 at 8:32 pm
everyday is ashura every land is karbala YOU should be MOURNING you MUSHRIK!
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April 17th, 2010 at 9:04 pm
thanks ……lets ..analyse …from day one…..1] ALLAH said ….bow before holy adam……..shytan refused…he did not refused …ALLAH ,s as worthy worshipped ……..NOW think……AT THAT MOMEN…..HOLY ADAM….is INDEX OF >>>>WHAT……total touheed …and total prophethood…….shytan did not admitted holy adam as his prophet…….he thought …he cannot be god……..this misunderstaning …jealousy …..he knows ALLAH…seeking from HIM…all powers…denying holy adam….disrespecting holy adam………….similarly ….HOLY IMAM HUSSAIN……..inkarbala ….was telling …….recongnise me ….who i am …….as at athat time ……..IMAM HUSSAIN……INDEX…symbol ..of TOTAL TOUHEED….TOTAL RISAALET….TOTAL IMMAMET….TOTAL ISLAM………..now read …hkawaja moin ud din cheesti ajmery …….poem ………SHAH ASET HUSSAIN dr israr …did not realized …the status of holy family……and said …AMEER with yazid …like dr zakir says r.a for yazid…….
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April 17th, 2010 at 9:20 pm
i do not know what intend mean
but any way you said that
"Ya Ali Madad in our creeds is not different from ya Allah madad!"
so
can you says Kaaba in our creeds is not different from Allah "
or some thing like that
if you wont to but it in arabic it is ok
and it will be very clear .
__________
(—–> We are all mushrik!)
idiots
we did not say we intend Kaaba=we intend Allah
so you are only mushrik here .
______________________
3- if we says
ya abo baker in our creeds is not different from ya Allah madad!"
what will be sons of mutah comment
and why ??
you have no logic
_____________
4- do you believe in trinity ……………?
ali is not Allah
but ya ali is ya Allah
lol
please some one tell him some thing
________________________________
@
intend= ???(????)
–>thanks
we intend(face ) Kaaba cuz Allah tell us to do that
it is better to put it in Arabic.
?? ????
????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??
–>the hadeeth from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Do not say, what Allaah wills and what Muhammad wills. Rather say: what Allaah wills then Muhammad wills.” (Ibn Maajah, 2118). A man said to him, “What Allaah wills and what you will.” He said, “Are you making me a rival to Allaah? Rather what Allaah Alone wills.” (Ahmad, 1/214)
so it is haram to says ( what Allaah wills and what Muhammad wills)
(or what Allah wills and you wills)
so how it will be halah to said
"Ya Ali Madad in our creeds is not different from ya Allah madad!"???
And Allaah knows best. May Allaah bless Muhammad.
_______________________
@ houssen
do not tell lies about Quran and sunnah
and just read haadith above
and what your scholars tell you have no thing with islam
lets see what Quran says
Indeed, those you [polytheists] call upon besides Allah are servants like you. So call upon them and let them respond to you, if you should be truthful.007.194
so when i call on Jesus PBUH i become polytheists but when i call on ahl-albyt i become Muslim ??
what should i says to you??
_______________________________
@
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???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? (?????)
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______________________________
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April 17th, 2010 at 10:07 pm
Salam Alaikum,
There are Some Actions that Don’t take into Consideration ‘Intend’.
And that is anything Allah has Forbidden… Like calling any Dead Man which Allah have Forbidden.
" All the other beings, whom the people INVOKE WITH ALLAH, create nothing! Nay, they are themselves created! They are DEAD, not living, and they do not at all know themselves when they shall again be raised to life!" Surah Nahl verse 20-21
Example:
___________
I intend to Drink Wine with Kaafirs because I want them to like me first.. then Call them to Islam.
Intention = Good.
Deed = UNACCEPTABLE with Allah swt.
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April 17th, 2010 at 10:17 pm
Horseman is a fanatic dedicated to wahabi/salafi cause. There is little point in using logic or reason.
Allah hast set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing. And on thier eyes is a veil…Surah Baqrah
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April 17th, 2010 at 11:00 pm
As Rosy Pearl pointed out there are some actions where the consideration of intention does not apply. The Hadith in question regarding deeds and intentions is Ahad; The saheeh version of this hadtih is reported by only one sahabi, Umar ibn al Khattab, who narrated to one tabi’i (Alqamah ibn Waqqas), who narrated to another tabi’i (Muhammad ibn Ibraheem) who narrated to another tabi’i (Yahya ibn Sa’eed) who then narrated to many. Therefore the first 4 links in the chain are singular. Therefore this hadith is AHAD.
Now just imagine you base your entire life around this report, on the surface it appears logical and "common sense consistent" but when you start to analyze the wording it becomes clear that the wordings are too general and the use of the word "ba" further complicate the matter, in all probability it would apply to some situation but a carte blanche it is not.
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April 17th, 2010 at 11:40 pm
In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,
There are two aspects to your question. The first with regards to seeking help directly from the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) and other righteous servants of Allah, and the second relates to taking a vow (nazar) for other than Allah.
Seeking help from other than Allah (istighatha)
If by seeking help from the Prophets and pious means making them an intermediary between the seeker and Allah, then there is nothing wrong in seeking their help. Tawassul (using intermediaries in supplication to Allah) through the Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace), Awliya and righteous believers is permitted, rather recommended according to the four schools of Sunni Islam.
It is quite perfectly permissible for one to seek the help of a Prophet or a righteous person by asking him to pray to Allah on one’s behalf, or to use him as an intermediary when praying directly to Allah. Explicit narrations and implicit indications of the Qur’an fully justify this practice, and it would be wrong to condemn it as being forbidden or to include it among the various forms of polytheism (shirk). (See below for details and evidences; and http://www.daruliftaa.org/tawassul1.htm).
This Tawassul may be expressed by using any phrase or done in any form, including:
Wasila (supplicating Allah through a means),
Istighatha (calling upon someone for help, through Allah’s love and concern for them),
Isti’ana (seeking someone’s assistance, through Allah’s granting).
When one seeks help from the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) or one of the righteous, the intention is to gain their intercession (shafa’a) and mediation before Allah Almighty, because of Allah’s love and concern for them.
Tawassul (supplicating Allah through a means) through a living or deceased intermediary is not the seeking of assistance from a physical body, or through a life or death; rather, it is to seek assistance through the positive meaning attached to the person in both life and death, and due to their rank with Allah, for the body is but the vehicle that carries that significance.
However, if one seeks the help of a Prophet, saint or any other creation of Allah believing him to be omnipotent like Allah, then this polytheism (shirk) and can never be considered permissible. Similarly, one believes that Allah alone is Omnipotent, but also believes that He has delegated a part of His power to an angel, a Prophet or a saint who exercises full and independent authority in that area, then this will also be considered Shirk, and thus forbidden.
The above are the two types of requests which the Qur’an forbids, and against which it warns us in the opening Surah:
“We worship you alone and only your aid we seek”. (al-Fatiha, 5).
The great late Syrian scholar, Shaykh Muhammad al-Hamid (Allah have mercy on him) explains:
“As for someone who believes that those called upon can cause effects, benefit, or harm, which they create or cause to exist as Allah does, such a person is an idolater who has left Islam” (See: Reliance of the Traveller, P. 940).
Therefore, there is nothing wrong in using the Prophets, saints and the righteous as intermediaries to Allah, through any of the abovementioned means, as long as one does not believe them to have the power to benefit or harm in of themselves without the granting of Allah.
Taking vows for other than Allah
As for taking a vow for other than Allah is concerned, the books of fiqh are quite clear that this is not permissible if this ‘other’ is made the end of one’s vow. It is not permissible to take a vow in the name of anyone other than Allah Most High.
For example, a person says to his spiritual guide: "If a certain task of mine is fulfilled, I will do such and such a thing for you", or a person goes to graves or places that are inhabited by jinns and makes certain requests over there. All these acts are haram and constitute shirk.
The great Hanafi jurist, Imam al-Haskafi (Allah have mercy on him) states:
“Taking vows for the deceased like many ignorant people take money, lamps, oil, etc to the graves of the saints out of reverence is totally unlawful (haram) by consensus”.
Allama Ibn Abidin (Allah have mercy on him) commentates on the above:
“This is unlawful due to certain reasons: Firstly because, it is taking a vow for the creation (of Allah) and taking a vow for the creation is unlawful, for it (taking a vow) is worship (ibadah) and the creation is not worshiped. Secondly, the one for whom the vow is taken is deceased and a deceased does not own anything. Thirdly, if he had the belief that the deceased has an effect in one’s affairs other than Allah, then this is disbelief”. (Radd al-Muhtar, 2, 439).
However, if the vow (nazar) was taken in the name of Allah alone, but the intention was to send the rewards of the vow to the deceased person’s soul or to feed the poor at a grave, then this is permissible.
Allama Ibn Abidin (Allah have mercy on him) states:
“If one said: “O Allah! I take a vow in your name that if you cure me or fulfil my need, then I will feed the poor people at the grave of Imam Shafi’i….or I will purchase a mat for their Masjid or give money, etc in which there is benefit for the poor, then this is permissible. And it will not be permissible then to use these items on a wealthy person” [ibid]
Therefore, in conclusion, if the vows taken for the saints and righteous are with the intention of showing reverence to them, and that they will accept these vows and benefit us, and if the vow is not taken in their name they will become upset, etc…then this is unlawful with the consensus of all the scholars. However, if the intention is merely to send the rewards of the vow taken for Allah to their soul, then this is permissible.
And Allah knows best
Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari, UK
http://www.daruliftaa.co.uk
References :
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1925&CATE=24
April 18th, 2010 at 12:19 am
Wahhabis are followers of Iblees.
Read Quran- Iblees says that he will misguide children of Adam from Sratul Mustaqeen. It means he is sitting on Sratul Mustaqeem but is misguided. Iblees pretend to be very pious like Wahhabis.
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